I am an atheist and I am interested to see what evidence Religious people have for God's existence because to me it seems pretty slim. But I am open to discussion, so please feel free to express your thoughts.
Last edited on Fri Jul 31st, 2009 07:32 pm by Michaeljsj
Hmmm--I think this is a very controversial and philosophical question and I would like to take the time to discuss it with you . Although you're question's scope is narrowed down to the reply of Christians, I'd like to go ahead and answer this question from a Muslim point of view. Hope you find my reply interesting
Our human minds are very limited. We can try to understand everything about the world we live in, but that is really all we can do. We, as human beings, frankly cannot imagine what is beyond our imagination, and even the words we use to describe our emotions and feelings, are just glimpses of what we really feel and think.
We are meant to dream, discover, and explore, but we are not meant to fully grasp the meaning of life. If all of humankind was to get together and attempt to put life into a fly, they would not be able to do so, and that's just a fly. So, how did all of this, what we hear, see, smell, and touch, come to be? In the end, the question is, who are we? Our minds are so fragile that our dreams can be broken in a second. Through this logic, I believe that there is a being much greater than us, who created the heavens and the Earth, and ultimately created us. This being is one, unique, and incomparable.
Now when you ask about solid evidence concerning the existence of God, I heartily recommend you research and read the Holy Quran. It provides a substantial amount of evidence for the existence of God through its descriptions of remarkable scientific discoveries that are just being diiscovered in the modern world. How did the Quran, which was revealed to the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) 1,600 years ago, contain such advanced scientific knowledge? The following verses in the Quran describe human embryonic development:
And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth). Thereafter We made him (the offspring of Adam) as a Nutfah (mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge) (and lodged it) in a safe lodging (womb of the woman). Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators. After that, surely, you will die. Then [again], surely, you will be resurrected on the Day of Resurrection.)) (23:12-14)
If the Qu'ran was really made by man, how could they have found this out without any means of advanced technology that today allows scientists and doctors to see inside the womb of a mother? 1,600 years ago, it is impossible for any civilization on Earth to have found such detailed evidence on human embryonic phases. So many people throughout history have tried to rewrite the Quran; so many have tried, but they have all failed. And many of them ended up becoming Muslim.
These are a few things that has drawn my attention to the religion of islam.
I have been researching Islam for the past year, and I know many people who are considering Islam as a way of life. I am not here to advertise this religion; rather, I am here to sincerely give you advice about choosing the best way to live your life.
i am a christian and i think that the bible is evidence because it gives a valid story on every question and concern.i think that this book had to be left behind because we have no other reference of when or who wrote the book. science doesn't have the an explanation for everything.a lot is still unknown to scientist today.
Sorry, I did not intend to write "Christians", I am just used to having this discussion with Christians, I will edit this. I also realise on my definition I have put "Relion vs Atheism" but I don't know how to change it.
You're first point about how humans lack in intelligence,and how we cannot understand the meaning of life, then how can we come to the conclusion of God's existence?
We are simply a collection of chemicals, beauty is not unanimous, what we consider amazing, or incredible is simply our thoughts, electrical impulses. Why do we immediately assume that we are special, superior to other species? perhaps life is more enjoyable as a fly, when you are unable to think, and forget so much, why do we assume that intelligence is a blessing. It is a survival instinct, a genetically passed on gene. If we start to consider ourselves underneath other species we would go extinct.
You may say we get this from the Qu'ran. I cannot help but think this is an exaggerated story to explain things unknown to us and to keep us in order. A style of writing which boomed around 2000 years ago.
You're point about the advancement of information confuses me, how much of that article was originally there and how much is your explanation, were the bits brackets there originally?
When you talk of putting life into a fly, do you mean resurrecting a fly, creating a fly or do you mean to say there is more to life than what a fly experiences, because if this is the case I disagree, life is no more than concsiousness, defined by humans. If you mean that we could not create a fly, and if this is the case how can we be created then, yes, we can't create a fly, but a fly can and a human can create a human. Evolution explains the creation of life in a way which is even visible today.
Both of my parents are atheists and during these discussions I sometimes wish they weren't as it makes it sound as if I have been indoctrinated, but I feel I thought about this enough to have to come to the conclusion by myself. In fact the school I go to now is supposedly Christian. Please reply this debate is interesting.
Well the Atheist has a point, but maybe we should consider this anology; if indeed we have a maker otherwise known as God then maybe we are not of the capacity to simply recognise his/her,its presence as we do each other, who said a computer in all its conciousness really knows that you are there siting before it in the same way we know it is stationed before us? I think that if there is a maker he/she/it communicates with us in a relatively different way than we communicate with each other. but to try to use your physical senses to track him down is just ludicris.
I was not raised an athiest but what i do know is that what man will tell manto get their way s limitless, religion, science even maths is based on uncertainty so we can't necessarily compare these. Interesting discussion, feel free to respond
I like you're analogy of the computer and I see you're point but this brings me to a point I mentioned previously. if we are unable to be conscious of Gods existence, then how are we coming to the conclusion of his existence?
I still do not understand why people believe that we are anything more than matter? Is this not arrogant of us? I agree with Einstein, "the most incomprehensible thing about this world is that it is comprehensible" we try to overcomplicate things with the idea of the incomprehensible. I think that the only thing we cannot comprehend is infinity, we assume that there must be a beginning and an end. We know that infinity exists, space goes on for infinity, so why can't time? We try to use to use God to explain this.
Thanks for responding! This is an awesome discussion! I'd like to say that this discussion will be very complicated, and please feel free to ask for clarifications.
So, there are a few things to bear in consideration. I think what you say about our being composed primarily of molecules is very significant in that this, as Mr. Speaker suggests, is perhaps why we should NOT rely on our senses to know things essentially. With respect to various theories of Knowledge and how we gain it, one way that is popularly considered to be the one and main way of gaining knowledge is through our senses. If we can see something, then it exists. If we can smell something, or hear something, then it exists. However, as Renee Descartes had shown, we can not rely on our senses to know that things exist. For example, this whole material world can all be a very elaborate dream. Or, another example is that we may be hallucinating. And so on. So we can't rely on the fact that we can't see God to negate His existence. And your mentioning that we're made of molecules is VERY significant in this regard--all of our senses are able to function because of their molecular structures, and so, and VERY importantly, are not infallible.
Another prominent way that we know things exist is when people tell us that things are a certain way. In other words...how do we know that molecules exist? Have you ever seen them? I know I haven't ever seen a molecule with my bare eyes. However, I believe that molecules exist and accept the prevailing theory of the structure of the molecule and so forth only because textbooks and people I consider experts tell me so. But just because someone tells me something, does it make it true? Any of us who have been tricked know that this is not the case
What we are now talking about is epistemology, the branch of knowledge--how do we know things exist? Ultimately, a question about God's existence is a question about existence. How do we know anything exists? How do we know that we exist? Perhaps we are a figment of some author's imagination. Right? Think of the Matrix series. That movie's not as out of the world as we'd think, and brings up a lot of important and throught-provoking questions.
Anyway, what our experiences establish is that something exists. And so far, we have not established the existence of God for ourselves either way. (remember, just because we don't know does NOT mean He does not exist nor does it mean that we believe He doesn't). I am going to suggest that you read a really good article on existence and how we know it and what we know of it. Once you get a chance, please go on this website:
Then please go to previous issues, Spring 2007, and in the Contents, read Daniel Jou's article for "The Sciences" column. Also go to the fall 2008 issue and read Sadia Ahsanuddin's editorial. They deal with the theism vs. atheism debate.
And how do I *know* that God exists? Atheists (who are familiar with what it means to be atheist) claim there are no absolutes whatsoever; everything is fluctuating, everything is temporal. (Because if there was an absolute, they'd admit that there is something that is NOT temporal, i.e. eternal, i.e. ultimate). However, if one says, "everything is temporal" and "everything is fluctuating", those are absolutes in and of themselves. Similarly, if one says, "There is no G-d," then one is making an absolute statement, something atheists cannot do, because it will then result in a major contradiction. Because remember, by "God" we're talking about a being that is absolute and limitless, Whose truth is not restricted to a specific time or place. Because of this, atheists cannot accept the existence of absolutes.
Secondly, there is truth in this world and there is falsehood. For example, if Joe steals a bag and tells everyone Mark stole it, there is the truth of the situation (Joe stole it), and there is the lie (Mark stole it). This is significant for the same reason--truth is an absolute. If you recognize that Joe DID steal the bag, then you are recognizing that there is another layer to lie, i.e. truth. And atheists cannot acknowledge that there is truth (an absolute) otherwise, again, internal contradiction in the atheist philosophy, thus rendering it invalid.
Thirdly, why do Atheists believe what they do? If one examines their reasoning, there are numerous holes. Not believing in something because we can't see it? We've already talked about this one. Not believing in something because *some* scientists say it doesn't exist? If you look at the history of science, you'll note that scientists once believed that the earth was the center of the universe. This no longer is true. But what if, in a century, scientists establish that God does exist? Maybe a century before the discovery of the atom, people laughed at the thought that we are made of things we can't see.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this
Now about the Qur'an--the revelation of the Qur'an began about 1400 years ago (sorry, I made a mistake in the last post). The Qur'an is the word of God and it has been preserved over the past 1400 years since the time it was revealed. No letter has been changed and manuscripts exist from centuries ago that show that not a letter has changed in the Qur'an. As I had stated earlier, it had been revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), one of a long line of prophets sent by God to mankind, revealing (i.e. imparting knowledge) of His existence (That He is and Who He is), His mercy, and His law to mankind. The prophets were each asked to call humans to their origin, their Creator, and live according to how God wanted us to live (incidentally, how God wanted us to live is exactly what is most beneficial for us ). The Prophet Muhammad was the last in this line of prophets because he exemplified what it means to be man, i.e. was the ideal man. True, honest, moderate in all respects, gentle, brave, and so, so kind.
The message that he brought was in many ways a social revolution. At a time when girls were being buried alive as soon as they were born in Arabia (not to mention the horrific treatment of women in Europe or China or India at the time), the Prophet Muhammad came to raise the status of women to that of equal to men in God's eyes. Women were now able to inherit property and divorce, the possibility of remarriage for widows, and Khadijah, a woman many yrs older than the Prophet Muhammad asked him to marry her. This was considered outrageous until very recently.
God in the Qur'an condemned the killing and/or oppressing of women and/or belittling of them; so did the prophet Muhammad who was known for his gentle and kind treatment of women, his wives in particular. This is a mainstream view, endorsed by leading Islamic scholars. What is so mindblowing about this is that this was established 1400 years ago, when just recently (within the last century), women have finally begun gaining rights in the United States or England, for example.
This progressiveness in thought and treatment is also reflected in the issue of racism. Racism plagues our society today. Black is considered inferior to White because of what? Skin color? 1400 years ago the equality of the races became an established and explicit principle in the Qur'an and concurrently, the religion of Islam.
The Qur'an states:
"And it is a sign of Allah that he created the heavens and the earth And He created the diversity of languages and colors" [The Holy Qur'an,Chapter 30 (Ar-Rum) : Verse 30;22]
'O mankind! We have created you from a single male and female and made you into nations and tribes so that you may know each other. The most honorable of you in the sight of Allah are surely the righteous." [The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 49 (Al-Hujurat) : Verse 13]
The Prophet Muhammad said:
"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action." This was reflected in his actions and treatment (e.g. his treatment of Bilal, the African slave his best friend freed, and whom he chose to call everyone to prayer, and this was in a racist society).
We (Americans) just abolished slavery less than 200 years ago! The progressiveness of the message of Islam, revealed 1400 years ago, and in support of novel concepts that have only just begun taking hold in our society, is remarkable.
Is it likely that a human being could have come up with such revolutionary ideas that were so different from the way people originally thought? People throughout history have come up with such ideas of equality and justice, but they have never been established as a way of life and considered so important in such short notice. This is one example. in addition to the examples of scientific phenomena that I had described in my previous post that were also incredibly accurate according to the modern technology we have today. If we're talking about the twisting of words around to make it compatible with modern scientific finding and socially just mores, then why wasn't the same done with other texts? What I am talking about here is highly accredited and is the mainstream scholarly opinion.
As someone who is currently studying classical Arabic and is actually translating ayaat, or verses from the Qur'an, I can say that the translations fail to capture the original beauty, elegance, and wisdom, of the Qur'anic verses, let alone enhance them in any way. No man has ever been able to comprehend the depth and the wisdom of any verse of the Qur'an. The third leader of the Muslim community after the Prophet Muhammed died, read 10 verses of the Qur'an and lived 10 years trying to understand and implement each and every verse. This man, called Umar, was known for his determination and Islamic knowledge.
The way Classical Arabic works, is that the words are based on a three letter root system. Each set of roots has different meanings and different "flavors." Because of the subtlty of the language, it is difficult to translate one Arabic word using just one English word. Therefore, additional words are used to help convey the meaning. These words are presented in brackets and this is regardless of any text you are looking at, whether it is a travel journal, a biographical entry, or Qur'anic passages.
btw, whether time is eternal is not very relevant to the God debate.
looking forward to a response
take care!
"And We did not create the heavens and the earth and what is between them except in truth..."
-Holy Qur'an 15:85
space isnt time.it not relevant.the world will not go on forever especially at this rate with pollution and global warming. There is an explanation to everything.So I raise this question,since science can not explain everything. How did the world begin ? there has to be an explaination and this is when most people turn to a higher power.
please keep your responses to a minuium.short and to the point
xeladebate wrote: space isnt time.it not relevant.the world will not go on forever especially at this rate with pollution and global warming. There is an explanation to everything.So I raise this question,since science can not explain everything. How did the world begin ? there has to be an explaination and this is when most people turn to a higher power.
please keep your responses to a minuium.short and to the point
Hang on, scientists know how the world began, they have proof of the birth of the world. The world most probably will go on forever, we as a species will soon die out but the planet will still be here.... After the world there is the entier universe. If god created earth who created the rest of it? (mars, saturn, pluto etc....) The universe is very much related to time. It is infinate!
stirling wrote: god exists otherwise where would we get AD and BC from?? also christmas, easter, and its the largest world religion!
Don't be a silly billy and say its not true!
Anyone could write a book and make up names for before and after the subjects life. I could sit down right now and write a book about anything, create holidays based upon it, spread the word, gain a few followers and there i have a brand new religion. Its called a cult!
If your god created the earth amd wrote the bible, who wrote all the other religion books? E.g. Veda, quran, torah and so on.
No offense intended but i think you are very simple minded for writing this comment.
There is dark matter in the universe that has been there since the beginning of time and yet everyone here is talking about how there is no way that something can come out of "nothing." But everything is something. There is really no such thing as "nothings," there is only unknowns. So you say there's a "god" and that evolution is impossible, stating that "there is no way something can come out of nothing." People are misguided by this inaccurate perception of nothing. The Religious alike have been lead astray by this misconception. Why should we trust their analysis?! They speak of how once there was nothing, but the faith is self contradictory. There was nothing, but there was a "god?" The statement is self contradictory just by the subjective "there once was nothing, but there was god." Ok so where does this "god" come from and how can something arise out of nothing?! You're all wrong, there was and has never been a true existence of "nothing!" If there is "nothing" then where did people come from?! There is no way that religious inclination contains any legitimacy. No offense, but if people haven't realized the contradition then they're obviously closed minded and moronic!
Ceeper wrote: There is dark matter in the universe that has been there since the beginning of time and yet everyone here is talking about how there is no way that something can come out of "nothing." But everything is something. There is really no such thing as "nothings," there is only unknowns. So you say there's a "god" and that evolution is impossible, stating that "there is no way something can come out of nothing." People are misguided by this inaccurate perception of nothing. The Religious alike have been lead astray by this misconception. Why should we trust their analysis?! They speak of how once there was nothing, but the faith is self contradictory. There was nothing, but there was a "god?" The statement is self contradictory just by the subjective "there once was nothing, but there was god." Ok so where does this "god" come from and how can something arise out of nothing?! You're all wrong, there was and has never been a true existence of "nothing!" If there is "nothing" then where did people come from?! There is no way that religious inclination contains any legitimacy. No offense, but if people haven't realized the contradition then they're obviously closed minded and moronic!
LOVE IT! But at the same time there must be an answer, (one we will never find) but there must be a reason behind everything. But you are quite rightly stating none of us could possibly have the correct answer.
There is clearly some scienific reason why things happen. I agree with the statement that there is a reason. Why can be known, but is disagreed upon simply because of a differentiating backround. There willl always be an answer. If want to truly know why, we must simply decide for ourselves...
Ceeper wrote: There is dark matter in the universe that has been there since the beginning of time and yet everyone here is talking about how there is no way that something can come out of "nothing." But everything is something. There is really no such thing as "nothings," there is only unknowns. So you say there's a "god" and that evolution is impossible, stating that "there is no way something can come out of nothing." People are misguided by this inaccurate perception of nothing. The Religious alike have been lead astray by this misconception. Why should we trust their analysis?! They speak of how once there was nothing, but the faith is self contradictory. There was nothing, but there was a "god?" The statement is self contradictory just by the subjective "there once was nothing, but there was god." Ok so where does this "god" come from and how can something arise out of nothing?! You're all wrong, there was and has never been a true existence of "nothing!" If there is "nothing" then where did people come from?! There is no way that religious inclination contains any legitimacy. No offense, but if people haven't realized the contradition then they're obviously closed minded and moronic! Ceeper, you need to go to "Discussion Boards" and look at the "Creationism vs. Evolution" topics and view the most recent posts. Your argument is on there and it appears that it is obviously full of error. Just letting you know that you may want to formulate some sort of refutation. This is a good debate/discussion and I'm interested in both sides.
Mashley2 wrote: stirling wrote: god exists otherwise where would we get AD and BC from?? also christmas, easter, and its the largest world religion!
Don't be a silly billy and say its not true!
Anyone could write a book and make up names for before and after the subjects life. I could sit down right now and write a book about anything, create holidays based upon it, spread the word, gain a few followers and there i have a brand new religion. Its called a cult!
If your god created the earth amd wrote the bible, who wrote all the other religion books? E.g. Veda, quran, torah and so on.
No offense intended but i think you are very simple minded for writing this comment. Mashley2, You also need to go to the "Discussion Boards" and view the "creationism vs. evolution" topic's latest posts. Your arguments have been thoroughly refuted. Great discussion, keep it up!
Mashley2, the Bible is the only accurate book of how the earth was created. It was actually written by the people that lived in those times. It is basically God's journal of how the earth is.
Last edited on Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:28 pm by JonnyRL
JonnyRL wrote: Mashley2, the Bible is the only accurate book of how the earth was created. It was actually written by the people that lived in those times. It is basically God's journal of how the earth is.
How do you know this? Isn't this what all religions say? "our book is the right book, yours is full of crap"
. Although you're question's scope is narrowed down to the reply of Christians, I'd like to go ahead and answer this question from a Muslim point of view. Hope you find my reply interesting 
